In this captivating episode of Supernormalized, host CeeJay Barnaby sits down with Bob Martin, a former mob lawyer turned meditation teacher. Bob’s extraordinary journey from the high-stakes world of criminal law to the serene practice of mindfulness is nothing short of remarkable.
Bob shares his unique perspective on how his experiences as a criminal lawyer, dealing with people on the edge of existence, have informed his approach to teaching meditation. He emphasizes that while his career shift wasn’t directly influenced by his legal work, the skills he developed in analyzing situations objectively have proven invaluable in his current role.
The conversation takes an intriguing turn as Bob discusses the synchronicity of events that led him to explore spirituality. From his therapist introducing him to I Ching to studying under a 72nd generation Daoist master, Bob’s spiritual journey is as diverse as it is profound. He touches on his exploration of Taoism, Buddhism, and even his marriage to a Southern Baptist, highlighting how these varied experiences have shaped his understanding of spirituality and meditation.
A key takeaway from the interview is Bob’s innovative approach to teaching meditation. He introduces the concept of “microdosing” meditation, encouraging listeners to practice for short periods throughout the day. This accessible approach challenges the common misconception that meditation requires long, uninterrupted sessions.
Bob also delves into the misconceptions surrounding meditation, emphasizing that it’s not about achieving a quiet mind, but rather about becoming a skillful manager of one’s thoughts. He shares practical tips and insights, making meditation seem achievable for everyone.
The interview concludes with Bob discussing his books and future projects, including a fascinating narrative non-fiction work based on a true story of an unlikely relationship in North Carolina.
This episode of Supernormalized offers listeners a unique blend of personal anecdotes, practical meditation advice, and thought-provoking discussions on spirituality, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in personal growth and mindfulness.
https://awiseandhappylife.com/
Transcript
CeeJay Barnaby (00:02)
In this episode of Super Normalize, we talk to Bob Martin. He’s an ex mob lawyer that then was led to becoming a meditation teacher. It’s a really weaving conversation. We get to hear his understanding of his earlier life, then moving into mindfulness and meditation as a part of his therapy, who was done by a therapist who happened to also be a Taoist.
but also trained in the Shaolin School of Arts. Amazing story, really enjoyed talking to Bob. He also dropped in this idea that you can actually do meditation like a microdosing experience. Very cool. So listen out for that. Thank you very much for listening and yeah, enjoy the show.
Welcome to Super Normalized, Bob Martin. Bob, can you share how your early career as a criminal trial lawyer influenced your journey into mindfulness and meditation? It must have been quite a change for you to go through to sort of emerge from that chrysalis into a new being. What did you go through and tell us a bit about yourself and welcome to the show.
Bob Martin (01:38)
Thanks for having me. I’m happy to be here and I appreciate the invitation. Yeah, so I’m not real sure that my career as a trial lawyer or as a mob lawyer or as all those crazy experiences during the 70s in Miami, Florida really influenced me into becoming a meditation teacher. But what I would say
is that all of those experiences, you know, and the whole process of learning to analyze things from an objective point and working with people who are on the edge of existence. I mean, when you come to a criminal lawyer, either side, whether it’s the prosecution or whether it’s the defense, your life either as a victim is on the edge or as an offender is on the edge. And so,
dealing with people that are on the edge of their existence has been a good repertoire of experience, I suppose, that helps me work with people learning meditation because I think we all have the same stuff. It’s just a question of degree. I think that it was a big help. But the two things really…
happened in spite of themselves, I would say. Other than the fact that the tension and the people that I was hanging out with, I was a mob lawyer and let’s just say that I was spending a little bit too much time with them and a little bit too little time with my family. And things were kind of falling apart. so, I mean, in terms of influencing me by
going down a rabbit hole, yeah, that would be true.
CeeJay Barnaby (03:17)
Hmm, okay. So that influence upon you, that, I mean, it sounds like what it did, it actually forced you into making a bit of a self-realization for change. What was the pivotal moment that led you to explore the spiritual aspects of life and how did that shape your approach to teaching mindfulness?
Bob Martin (03:37)
Like a lot of things in my life, things were very coincidental. Some people would say, synchronous. Although that’s a whole conversation. Do things just happen to happen together or are they caused to happen together?
CeeJay Barnaby (03:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. Because
I mean, you say that now, right, but looking back, does it look like it was all planned?
Bob Martin (03:57)
You know, what the godly universe consists of, whether it’s intelligent, whether it’s not, is a bit above my pay grade, but based on my experience. Well, I do have a current working hypothesis.
CeeJay Barnaby (04:11)
You don’t have an opinion.
Okay, tell us. I’m
very interested.
Bob Martin (04:21)
Well,
the current working hypothesis is that information flows on energy and that the entire universe is wrapped in an envelope of energy. And so that the idea of having some kind of intelligent glue that holds it all together makes sense to me. And then based on all of the things that happened, I mean, I can kind of…
I got to be a lawyer because somebody said I should have went out and got a job and earned the money for me to take the law school aptitude test. The same person stuck with me and died three days after I was admitted to law. I was at the bottom of my existence, seeing my therapist, I didn’t know where to go. And he started throwing coins and gave me an answer, which pissed me off royally, but caused me to ask him what he was doing.
And I found out that he was one of the primary students of a 72nd generation Daoist master from the Shaolin Temple, who I studied under for six years, watching me.
CeeJay Barnaby (05:24)
What?
That’s cool.
That’s cool. Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Martin (05:30)
Then when everything was coming together from my teachings from watching me and my heart was changing, I ran into trouble with my mob clients and I had to move out of Miami and I wound up in rural North Carolina where I was given an entire blank canvas to rewrite my life. I mean, these are just coincidences that, you know, yeah.
CeeJay Barnaby (05:54)
I think you’re saying coincidences. That’s just a wrong word. think it sounds, it sounds
so planned. They were, they they were plotting, they were plotting your life or who they are, but the energy, the love force.
Bob Martin (06:00)
It sounds that way.
Yeah, right. Well, you know, it’s funny because
my spiritual background is growing up in an amusement park carnival family from a Hungarian. My dad was Hungarian royalty whose ancestors were all wiped out by the Bolsheviks. My mom was Roma Gypsy whose ancestors were all wiped out by the Nazis and everybody else.
CeeJay Barnaby (06:25)
Whoa.
Bob Martin (06:32)
So they didn’t really think that there was a very merciful God around. And so we didn’t have a religious conversation in my family. But then I’m introduced to watching me, think about it, 72nd generation, that’s 1,400 years of passing wisdom down from father to son. That’s crazy. can’t even, you know. And then getting to, so, I’m sorry, where was that going?
CeeJay Barnaby (06:58)
talking about your lineage and how it’s all influenced you.
Bob Martin (07:01)
so the spiritual journey. So then it was Taoism and then it was Buddhism and then it was kind of just kind of philosophy. And then I married my second wife and she’s a Southern Baptist Bible literalist, you know, who really believes that the world is 4,000 years old and that Noah’s Ark and Garden of Eden and all of those, you know, historical biblical
stories are literally gospel. And so it’s been an interesting spiritual journey and it’s exposed me to a whole lot of thinking. And of course, you know, that was my relationship with my wife and who is a true saint. And we really connected on values, but not on cosmology, I promise.
CeeJay Barnaby (07:40)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Bob Martin (07:51)
But that’s what caused me to write my second book, which was a of a Rosetta Stone between Eastern thinking and Western spiritual thinking. that we… The name is I Am the Way, because you know, the Dao, the word Dao means the way. And Jesus said, am the way, which maybe he was saying I am the Dao. It could have been.
CeeJay Barnaby (08:00)
Hmm, we’ll see aim at that book.
Yeah.
Yeah, right.
Bob Martin (08:18)
So it’s called,
I Am the Way, Finding the Truth in the Light Through a Biblical Reimagining of the Dao.
CeeJay Barnaby (08:25)
Hmm.
And so that book is about, you’d say, then finding your place to be in accord with the universe and path.
Bob Martin (08:38)
I think that Taoism, that is the general thrust of Taoism, to find your place in the universe and also to help you learn how to align properly with that place. It’s like if you’re, a lot of times people think going with the flow means taking your hands off the wheel, merrily, merrily.
is but a dream. But it’s not because if you’re floating down the river and it’s calm, that’s great. But what happens when you get to the whitewater? When you get to the whitewater, you need to attend to your canoe. And if you’re approaching a waterfall, you have to take some action. And if it’s a hurricane or if it’s a gentle rain, you act differently and align yourself differently with it.
CeeJay Barnaby (09:04)
you
No.
Absolutely.
Bob Martin (09:29)
And I think what Taoism teaches is that there are all of these different times in your life, times when you’re being listened to, times when you’re not, times when you can make great progress, times when you can’t. And how do you respond wisely to each of those energies?
CeeJay Barnaby (09:40)
Mmm.
So rolling back to your experience with your therapist throwing the coins for you and did you yourself end up realizing that that reading, even that first reading was right on point?
Bob Martin (09:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
yeah, was, he ran it and he drew out the hexagram and analyzed it and he opened up the I Ching to the chapter and the name of the chapter was Retreat.
CeeJay Barnaby (10:16)
Look,
whenever I throw the I Ching I’m like, god, it’s just it’s just so bizarre and like perfect, right? You look at it you read it. Sometimes it’s like talking to Yoda another time. It’s like The the wisest old sage just giving you a slap across the head. It’s like come on. This is what’s happening Please be aware of this, you So, yeah, I totally relate to it totally relate to that and yeah, so
Bob Martin (10:18)
So.
Yeah.
huh.
Totally. Yeah.
CeeJay Barnaby (10:42)
How do you integrate your experiences from the teachings of Taoism, Buddhism and Christianity in your meditation practices? I mean, what sort of meditation practice do you actually do?
Bob Martin (10:52)
Ah, that’s
great question. Thank you for that question. So there’s all kinds of meditators. You know, there’s transcendental meditation and you know, many different, the school I suppose that I teach from is insight meditation. It’s the process not of quieting the mind, trying to find an empty mind.
but actually becoming a skillful manager of your thoughts because you can’t stop your thoughts. But you can manage them. You can learn to manage your thinking. And there are techniques just like any manager. You can go to school, to a business school and learn management skills. Well, meditation is learning
CeeJay Barnaby (11:36)
Yes.
Bob Martin (11:39)
thought management skills. just like, I think just like any.
CeeJay Barnaby (11:41)
Mm-hmm.
Bob Martin (11:47)
You’re not going to go off on a tangent if you’ll let me because I think that it just kind of came up. It’s important. So, you know, teach, I also teach business law classes and I noticed that there is a lot of thinking these days because of electronic media and because of the internet and Google and all of these other things that there’s this kind of sense and feeling that
CeeJay Barnaby (11:50)
Yeah, go for it.
Bob Martin (12:10)
I don’t need to know it until I need it.
I don’t need to learn it until I need it because anything I need to know, I can access and get.
CeeJay Barnaby (12:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, outsourcing your own knowledge. It’s like your own, yeah, even your own personal intelligence, right? Just putting it over there because you don’t really need, and I know where you’re going with this. It’s like the embodiment of that knowledge is different to doing that.
Bob Martin (12:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely. Isaac Asimov, who was a very prolific writer and came up with hundreds of science fiction stories and books and textbooks. Somebody once asked him, how do you come up with all those crazy ideas? So he wrote a very brilliant essay explaining how he does it. But basically it comes down to, there are two factors. One,
CeeJay Barnaby (12:44)
love his books.
Bob Martin (13:02)
You have to have a lot of bits of information. So acquiring information simply for the sake of acquiring the information has value, even if you don’t use it and don’t see a use for it right away. And he says, and then you have to learn to allow your mind to be flexible and to be wrong. Because if you allow the flexibility, your mind will start to connect all the dots
CeeJay Barnaby (13:17)
Yeah.
Bob Martin (13:31)
and lots of times it comes up with a mismatch. But every once in a while, it comes up with a zinger. And there’s a story. And there’s the story. Putting this together with that. And if you didn’t have either this or that, it wouldn’t have been there.
CeeJay Barnaby (13:48)
It does speak to the dissolution of people’s of, would you say like a personal intelligence with the distraction culture that comes from our media. like we just talked about outsourcing your knowledge. can, if you can’t connect all those dots, then basically you’re just a sponge. You just soak things up, you know, and then drop them, drop them straight away because you’ve got no way to put them together. And, and I think that’s pretty much a.
Bob Martin (14:09)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
CeeJay Barnaby (14:15)
bit of a curse of our society as it is right now. So yeah, I think that the best thing we can do is like pick up books, start reading, turn off the TV, put the phone away, you know, and I think that would change a lot of people’s, well, but they should watch this show and also listen to you. So.
Bob Martin (14:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, they should watch the show. You
know, in Buddhism, there is the expression beginner’s mind, as opposed to expert mind. And, you know, when you’re expert, the problem is you may know the answers, but there’s no possibility because you know. But in beginner’s mind, the world is full of possibilities. And like,
If you think of a child, childlike curiosity, and what’s that like? And just to watch a child, you know, walking around outdoors and picking up a leaf of grass or a rock and looking at it and examining it for no reason, but just mere curiosity, it’s a skill that we ought to take into our adult lives.
CeeJay Barnaby (15:18)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, keeping the curious mind for sure.
Bob Martin (15:22)
Matter of fact, in
meditation, we call curiosity the antidote to judgment.
See, because when I judge, I know. I know that’s wrong. A thought came up in my head and I accepted it as truth and I don’t question it or I’m not curious either about why it came up or whether it’s valid or what brought me to that thought or whether or not it’s helpful. You know, those are kind of curious questions. it’s a curious thought, you know. That guy’s ugly.
You know, she’s too thin. That’s a curious thought. I wonder where that comes from. I wonder why, you know, I wonder why I felt something when that happened. So.
CeeJay Barnaby (15:58)
Yeah.
I know, yeah, that’s exactly the sort of mind that I have when I basically go around and do things. Sometimes I have those thoughts, go, where’d come from? You know, cause it’s sort of hilarious. I even laugh at myself like, what the hell?
Bob Martin (16:17)
Hahaha!
And CJ, tell me, isn’t that a happier way of dealing with stuff?
CeeJay Barnaby (16:28)
yeah, it makes the world hilarious. know, like, know, it’s like, instead of engaging with the world as an adversarial sort of position, you’re actually engaging the world in a position of co-creation. And that’s extremely important because if you’re always co-creating, you always also realize that you’re also co-creating all the rough stuff too. So if you can figure that out and then step back and then just laugh at it, you’re like, well, what can I do now?
Bob Martin (16:30)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
CeeJay Barnaby (16:55)
You know, what’s next? Yeah, yeah. In your opinion, what are some common misconceptions about meditation that you’d like to address for the listeners?
Bob Martin (16:55)
Yeah.
thank you. Thank you. Yeah. as soon as somebody hears I’m a meditation teacher, what I hear most often is, meditation, that would be really great if I could do it, but I’d never be able to do it because I try to sit down once and my mind just went crazy and there was all these thoughts and I’m never going to be able to quiet my thoughts. that’s what people say. Then there’s all of the images.
of monks sitting in the lotus position, know, overnights for days, going to a monastery. And that takes years and that, you know, you have to be very quiet. You know, I meditate for 15 to 20 seconds, maybe 30 times a day. Just the other day, I was in the supermarket and I was in a bit of a rush.
CeeJay Barnaby (17:48)
Micro Dosing.
Bob Martin (17:56)
And I’ve been meditating for 20 years. It doesn’t mean that I don’t get rushed, that I don’t get stressed, and I don’t get angry, and I don’t feel grief, you know. But I’ll mention something about that in a minute. So there’s this woman in front of me. I’m in a rush, and she pulls out a three ring binder full of coupons.
CeeJay Barnaby (18:14)
So you’re like, I’m to be here for a while.
Bob Martin (18:16)
Right.
So I just paid attention to my breath. just went into, know, took a deep breath and started like noticing my breath. you know, before I knew it, she was done and I went through and I wasn’t even in a rush anymore. So that’s, you know, it’s a much nicer way to go through life than to sit there and grumble and mumble through the whole thing. You know, it’s just…
CeeJay Barnaby (18:43)
everything happens
at the right time. you know, the anxiety around, you know, whatever future event that you think you may be missing out on is not worth it. Like you, like you’ve experienced and, like you just said then microdosing meditation. That’s, that’s fantastic. I love that idea. You know, I, I, I do it, but I don’t realize that it was that until you just said that then I’m like, that’s what I do too. So
Bob Martin (18:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well,
we actually all do it. We just don’t recognize it as meditation. The only difference between just doing it and calling it meditation is that when you do the exact same thing but are aware that it’s meditation, all of a sudden it becomes an intentional act. And because it’s an intentional act,
instead of an accidental act, it’s the same act. But because it’s an intentional act, you can make use of it. Because you’ve given it your attention, it was your intention to pay attention to what you were doing, you can make use of it to a greater extent than if it just happened and faded away.
CeeJay Barnaby (19:50)
Yeah, yeah, it allows you to actually,
Bob Martin (19:52)
And that’s
what we do when we start learning meditation. We start distinguishing between being lost in a fog of rumination and projection and attending. I’m driving home and my car is driving me home, right? Most of the time. You just get in your car, turn it on and it drives you home. And you’re thinking about a million things and la-di-da and you’re going and driving.
Then all of a sudden another car gets a little too close to your car. Now you’re attending to your driving. There’s a shift. And even if you got an MRI, if you were photographing the brain, you would see the energy of the brain totally shift to a different area of the brain. When you’re in neutral, when you’re in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, the part of the brain that goes along the top crevice,
CeeJay Barnaby (20:34)
you
Bob Martin (20:44)
on both sides is lit up. That’s the default. And the moment you pay attention, the frontal cortex just starts… So, you know, can actually map it in the mind and the brain.
CeeJay Barnaby (20:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, right. Okay. Can you describe a success story of one of your students that particularly resonated with you?
Bob Martin (21:05)
Ooh,
yes. So I teach in my private practice, but I also teach on campus. I’ve been able to get the university to allow a two credit meditation course. I get 15 students every semester and it’s all elective, of course. It’s not a required course. And so generally I get folks…
who come in, they are perfectionists or feeling overwhelmed or they just want to go from the ordinary to the extraordinary. But they’re looking for some benefit from the class, clearly, otherwise they wouldn’t take it. So the way that I teach meditation, the folks at Duke University developed an entire digital infrastructure
for adapting meditative techniques to the Western mind. And it’s marvelous. But it consists of an app that the student gets and a dashboard that I get. And every day, like they come once a week and we meet and we talk about whatever’s getting in the way and any obstacles. And I show them some videos and we talk about some new techniques and that’s what we do in class.
CeeJay Barnaby (22:01)
Yeah, right.
Bob Martin (22:13)
Then they go home and I ask them to practice 10 minutes a day. And then when they do their 10 minutes and the guided meditations are on the app, so they say, today I’m gonna do breath awareness, I’m gonna do body scan or belly breathing, push the button, and they get their guided meditation. And there’s a little silent time in the 10 minutes. And then a window opens up and they log how they responded to that particular 10 minutes.
how they feel. Sometimes I’ll get an ad log like, there was a terrible meditation, there was a dog barking and I got distracted and I forgot to meditate and it was just terrible.
And I’ll get that log, I get up at four o’clock in the morning so that I can get their logs returned to them before they do their next practice. And I type it on my dashboard and it goes back to their app. And then before they practice, they get my coaching. So every single day, there’s interplay between us. And that is unique in the teaching, unique in the teaching. And it makes the efficacy of the…
CeeJay Barnaby (23:11)
That’s cool. Yeah, I like that.
Bob Martin (23:22)
the few weeks that we spent together worth months of normal training.
CeeJay Barnaby (23:27)
Is that a part of like the
curriculum or I mean how did this app to get developed or did you develop that or something?
Bob Martin (23:32)
No, no, it was developed at Duke University. Yeah, the counseling department, the psychology department, the medical department, the research department, they all collaborated because Duke students are traditionally stressed out and they wanted to do something to give them a tool to de-stress. So they developed it there and now it’s spreading all over the country into universities all over the country.
CeeJay Barnaby (23:34)
Yeah, right, the university developed that. That’s cool.
Yeah, right.
Wow, that’s
a great idea. It’s like keeping people accountable, but also helping them walk the path. That’s awesome.
Bob Martin (24:04)
Yeah.
It’s like a yoga teacher. can watch YouTubes, look at an app, but they can’t tell you to move your elbow two inches to the right. And when I get those logs every day, it’s like saying, I’ll say things like, wow, you use that word focus all the time. And I just want to remind you, it’s not about maintaining focus, which is…
CeeJay Barnaby (24:17)
That’s right.
Bob Martin (24:31)
an important part. It’s not about maintaining focus because your mind wanders and at some point, because you told yourself that you wanted to pay attention to your breath, your mind will go, psst, psst, hey, hey, psst, you’re not paying attention to your breath. And you’ll feel like, you’ll feel a little startled, like And then you think, I screwed up.
CeeJay Barnaby (24:51)
You
Bob Martin (24:59)
And then there’ll be this whole flood of judgments. And then eventually all the judgments, you say everything you possibly can say to yourself, the committee in your head gives you all of the judgments it can. And finally, they’ve said everything they can and they go, okay, now this is where the healing happens, is right here. If the student then can say, okay, let me go back to my breath and pay attention to my breath and begin again.
CeeJay Barnaby (25:02)
Yeah.
Bob Martin (25:26)
I can begin again. And then my mind wanders off, goes crazy. I’m thinking about what if I left the stove on, what I’m going to have for dinner, what I should said to that guy yesterday. I’m not paying attention to my breath. Return, begin again.
Notice, return, begin again. Notice, return, begin again. Now anybody can do this. Now once they know that that’s what it is and it’s not wrong for your mind to wander. It’s in the returning and the beginning again. Every time you do that, you’re developing a tolerance for discomfort and you’re saying, I can do this, I can begin again.
CeeJay Barnaby (25:49)
Mm.
Bob Martin (26:06)
You’re teaching yourself that you can start over. And that’s a lesson that helps you build a tolerance for discomfort. It helps you get back up on the horse when you get thrown off, get back in the saddle. It starts to change your perception of yourself.
And it also starts to teach you that you’re not your thoughts. Because when you wake up and intentionally come back and return your attention to your breath, you’re learning that you have the capability.
of doing that, that you have some manageability in your thinking. So it’s teaching you, it’s starting to teach you how to manage your thinking. Then of course we go on to little more complicated things like labeling thoughts. It’s a gambling thought, it’s a remorseful thought, it’s a this thought. And it kind of organizes all your thinking, puts everything into little file cabinets in your brain.
and it starts to make you feel like you have some space.
CeeJay Barnaby (27:12)
Hmm. It sounds like building that meditation muscle so that you have more resilience in life and resilience in response to life. And, from my own experience, meditation just makes everything smoother.
Bob Martin (27:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. You know, it’s… Clearly, I’m passionate about this, so I hope I’m not talking too much. But a lot of people think that meditation is about cutting out from life or pulling back from life and not feeling all that strong emotions and stuff like that.
CeeJay Barnaby (27:31)
Yeah, yeah, that’s great.
Bob Martin (27:43)
And that it’s all about peace and tinkling crystals and tree hugging and blah blah.
It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to feel all of the emotions that life gives you.
It just, well the metaphor I like to use is life is kind of like floating on a log down a river. Whatever the river does and whatever the log does, you’re on it and you’re experiencing it. So if it’s a calm river, that’s great. If it’s white water, that’s different. If it’s a waterfall, that’s different. And you’re going through all of
the experiences of life. But what meditation teaches you to do is…
You know how sometimes when you’re speaking and there’s another voice in your head that’s commenting on your speaking, you might be saying, hmm, this isn’t going very well. Or you might be saying, that was good. Or you’re telling a joke, they’re really going to laugh at this line. Or you’re thinking,
CeeJay Barnaby (28:44)
That’s, yeah.
Bob Martin (28:53)
I forgot to put some, what was that that I was supposed to put in here? I think I’m going to forget the punchline. no, what am I going to do now? Meanwhile, you’re still talking and telling the joke, right?
CeeJay Barnaby (29:03)
They’re gonna watch that in a right.
Bob Martin (29:05)
Right? So
that other part of you that’s commenting on your thinking, the scientists call that metacognition or thinking about your thinking.
If you think about what you feel in that other voice, it’s not overwhelmed. It’s not stressed. It’s just commenting. It seems like it’s a very calm commenting because all the stress is in the other part of you that’s actually talking. But this other part that’s commenting is kind of stable.
So what we teach you in meditation is to be able to identify that other part of you and allow yourself to spend more time there, even as you’re doing what you’re doing. You’re observing what you’re doing.
It’s kind of like splitting yourself in two, kind of, but not really. But we’ve all experienced it before. So it’s like going up on the bank of the river and watching yourself on the log float down the river. From that place, from the place of being on the bank of the river, there is stability and there’s comfort and there’s okayness. So when you reconnect with that part of you,
CeeJay Barnaby (30:28)
Yeah.
Bob Martin (30:32)
That’s where you find the stability.
CeeJay Barnaby (30:36)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I found personally for myself with, working with meditation that after a long time of doing it, my, most of my inner narration has gone. It’s like my, my inner narration, the inner narrative. I don’t, it doesn’t exist. I don’t even have it. I just, I’m just here, which is really odd, but that’s just the way it is. Yeah.
Bob Martin (30:48)
Most of you are what?
Mm-hmm.
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. There
is over time, and I really don’t talk about that too much for people that are thinking about meditation, but it is true that over time, your focus does increase, your ability to pay attention does increase, your calmness overall does increase, and then there is a merging. There seems to be a merging of those two things where you almost become much more unified.
CeeJay Barnaby (31:18)
Mm.
Bob Martin (31:23)
you become, there’s much more singularity. Yeah. Yeah.
CeeJay Barnaby (31:26)
Yeah, for sure.
So you were inspired to write your books, Children of Abraham and I Am the Way, and how have they shaped your understanding of faith and spirituality?
Bob Martin (31:38)
Well, not having grown up in a Christian household, and of course living and moving into North Carolina, which is a deeply Christian, Baptist, Bible-belt area of the country, you experience…
people of a variety of faiths. And of course, I spent a lot of time in New York, and New York is a very diverse town. So you get to know Jews, you get to know Muslims, you get to know Arabs, you get to know Persians. So 9-11 came around, and there was all these wars between the Sunni and the Shia.
between us and the Arabs and all these people going around quasi-religious reasons for killing each other. And you kind of look at it and you think about things like the Crusades and all of the craziness that has gone on in order to get you to believe the way I believe, that I would have to imagine that
from that perspective of that kind of religiosity that there’d be a God who might be looking down if he spoke English and if he thought like we thought. And he would say, this wasn’t really my intention for you guys. And what could he do? What would he do? So I figured how could you bring God down in a way
CeeJay Barnaby (32:56)
You
Bob Martin (33:05)
that made sense in this technological world. So I thought, yeah, you know those little tickers on the bottom of your television? All of a sudden, mysterious messages from a god start appearing. And everybody thinks it’s a hoax. But the question of the book is, what kinds of faults are redeemable? And what kind of listening would the world have?
CeeJay Barnaby (33:13)
Yeah.
you
Bob Martin (33:30)
for such a radical concept that there actually might be a divine intelligence for real. And so I take my characters, you know, through this entire transformative time as the world is beginning to change. What about my mafioso client? What about the arrogant lawyer? What about the abused housewife? What about the Arab storekeeper? What about…
CeeJay Barnaby (33:36)
you
Bob Martin (33:56)
the Palestinian kids serving the rich Jewish family. These are all my characters and they all intertwine as these things are happening in the environment around them. It was a thought experiment, it started as a thought experiment and it just developed into a novel.
CeeJay Barnaby (34:06)
nice
that’s cool. So interesting you talk about that because I think we actually are living in those times anyway. Where, where, know, we’re getting, everyone’s getting messages from the spirit. We’re moving into the paradigm of magic. And as a part of that, I think that, yeah, people are starting to wake up in new and novel ways. And I think that, you know, by the description of your book, that’s a, that’s a good way to actually help some people find their way to spirit as well.
Bob Martin (34:19)
Yeah
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
CeeJay Barnaby (34:40)
So that’s cool.
Bob Martin (34:41)
It certainly poses questions, you know, about what really is our relationship to the divine and how sincere are we.
CeeJay Barnaby (34:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it does seem like that the Divine is inviting us to, you know, connect and participate.
What’s next for you in terms of future projects or aspirations in both mindfulness teaching and writing?
Bob Martin (35:04)
Well, I’ve got two books that I want to write. There was a really interesting case here in Alamance County, North Carolina, where a 65-year-old white racist man employed a 24-year-old ex-con
black man to be his servant. And then the 65 year old man decided he was gay and they formed a relationship and fell in love with each other. And he wanted to leave everything to this young man. And the legal powers in the county wanted to prevent him and find him to be incompetent and tried to find him to be incompetent, but he beat that. And, and
They would not, no lawyer would write the will for them, and so they had a handwriter will. It’s just a crazy, crazy story.
CeeJay Barnaby (36:04)
That’s awful. mean, seriously, it’s like they should be able to do what they like, right? I mean, where does common
law sit with that? I mean, he should be able to write a common law will.
Bob Martin (36:13)
Well, yeah, no, the laws are a little rough around that. You can write a contract with somebody, like, if you take care of me for the rest of my life, I’ll leave everything to you. And the contract would have some, and that’s exactly what they did. And then when they died, the people who had previously been the guy’s beneficiaries sued to wipe out the contract. And so there’s this big court case.
and eventually they settled it out, splitting some of the money up. The sad part about it is that the old man, when he died, I went and got the funeral records and at his funeral, there was only one person who signed the book and that was the young man. There one person that signed the book, that was the young man and he said,
CeeJay Barnaby (36:59)
What?
Bob Martin (37:04)
P-O-P-I, POPPY, you made a man out of me and you taught me how to be a man and I’ll never forget you.
And so it’s sad and sweet at the same time. So that’s a great story. That’s what you call narrative nonfiction, because it’s a true story. And then…
CeeJay Barnaby (37:11)
That’s sad and sweet at the same time.
Yeah, wild. So that’s,
you’re actually starting to write that now or you are writing it?
Bob Martin (37:26)
I’m doing the investigation. I’m talking to the people. Yeah. Getting that. And then my father’s story is just a crazy story. Escaped from Hungary as the Bolsheviks invaded back in the beginning of the 20th century. Got waylaid to Uruguay and then finally New York. Met my mom. Found popcorn and caramel corn as a way to make the American dream come true.
CeeJay Barnaby (37:28)
Okay, getting all the facts together.
Bob Martin (37:51)
built up a huge popcorn empire and then right during World War II, the mob came in and took it all from him. And he was left with nothing but a trailer and a carnival. And he worked that for a while and then finally came back to New York. And then by happenstance, somebody died and he had the opportunity to take over 12 concession stands in an amusement park.
And it’s just like the arch-typical hero’s journey, but it stretches from 1898 to 1997. So it’s like historical fiction. So it would be fun.
CeeJay Barnaby (38:33)
Sounds like it’ll be fun for sure. Yeah.
Bob Martin (38:35)
I got to tell you, I asked
my dad one time, dad, you know, he was 95 at the time, so was 1997. And I said, you were born without indoor plumbing and you live to see a man walk on the moon. What was that like?
He says, well, it all happened kind of slowly.
That’s all I got. That’s all I got.
CeeJay Barnaby (39:05)
That’s excellent. Well, Bob, we’ve come to the end of the podcast and I was going to ask you, how can people find you in your works? Where should they go? Where would you like to direct them?
Bob Martin (39:08)
Ha ha ha.
Just simply to my website, there’s a couple of free e-books that I wrote that you can get on my website and download. There’s Meditation for Me, 24 Tips to Relax. They’re all free. It’s at awiseandhappylife.com.
CeeJay Barnaby (39:33)
Excellent.
Okay, I’ll put that in the show notes and I want to say thank you very much for coming on the show and sharing your knowledge and wisdom and stories. It’s been appreciated. Thank you so much, All right, I’ll just say goodbye to the listeners.
Bob Martin (39:46)
Thank you, CJ.
CeeJay Barnaby (39:51)
That was a great conversation with Bob. I like the way he has this sort of a genuine presence around his understanding of meditation and the processes that go on in the minds. mean, I find from talking to people a lot about meditation over time now that everyone gets afraid of the idea of doing it because, know, well, my mind talks to me, blah, blah, blah, blah, But that’s, you can actually use that as a path to liberation. What I mean by liberation is that
freedom of space and hitting that zero point of experience. So if that’s something that appeals to you, please, if you wanted to take up your information, your understanding and your growth with Bob, go to his website in the show notes down below. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, like and subscribe, it’s free. And if you’re in a podcast app, give me five stars, share it to a friend that you know that would enjoy this conversation. And thank you so much for listening and it’s bye for now.
